MoiselleTheFae: Personally, I think the real reason this got changed is there is some underlying issue with the debuff system. On release we saw in multiple patch notes that there were ongoing problems with Noxious not triggering if enemies had too many debuffs. And we've seen in past ultimates and of course in field content problems with hitting the debuff cap. I think there are underlying issues with the debuff system that SE doesn't want to spend the time/resources addressing and this is why the change was made. I also think this is why we've seen fewer and fewer dots over the years, and when we do get them (like Sage's new AoE dot) they don't stack with the older options.
Tigerbro6: I found the job fun, but probably one of the most useless job bars ive ever seen om a job tho
marslara: the removal of noxious was baffling to me
gobleupmonster: I didn't super mind whether they removed noxious gnash or not. What I did mind, however, was being blindsided when they said it'd be positionals that they'd change, and then the change was not positionals. I feel like I got baited.
flr_rr: Rinon, I don't know if I've ever mentioned it to you, but I really appreciate that you can actually understand the game design behind the job decisions for VPR's 40s timer (and the game as a whole)
A lot of XIV content creators usually make me sad because they immediately dismiss any consideration in a job as "clunky", when overcoming these can be really satisfying
YoshidoBombido: What's especially frustrating to me is how many of my friends who don't play Viper at a high level defend the removal. It makes me realize that we probably aren't getting it back if that's the attitude of most players.
herebejamz: I'm living with it, but like, It is kinda disappointing. Especially the name changes, that one's particularly weird, but the loss of Gnash and the now mandatory alternation of the first two GCDs feels so disappointing.
gorp2116: >Dawntrail early access released on 6/28
>Upcoming job adjustments announcement with the initial Viper adjustment plans posted on 7/04
>Patch 7.05 released on 8/1
>This video uploaded on 8/8
>It is technically possible that this video had more time in the oven than the initial Viper adjustment plans

One can't say the same of how the no-NG iteration was conceived because we don't have an exact date (sometime between the 7/04 post and the 7.05 patch notes on 7/29, so likely a longer time gap anyway) but it doesn't reflect well on the philosophy they approach Viper with. I don't actually know if the idea that different jobs are handled by different teams comes from a concrete source as much as I've seen it thrown around, but this all happening at the same time as a job like Pictomancer being developed is really weird
uwu2u: I think what isn't addressed enough is that now viper has 4 permanent maintenance self buffs, and an additional 2-3 conditional buffs BY ITSELF.
this can potentially make it a victim to buff cap and repeat the same problems a lot of classes had when TOP came out.
of course we can't tell what the Eden ultimate will bring but I hope the dev and playtesting teams will remember TOP and make sure it won't repeat itself.
MaestroKytes: With the removal of of noxious gnash, Viper honestly feels like the melee job for someone who wants to play ranged physical. And as someone who mains ranged physical but has been asked to play VPR for this savage tier, I absolutely love how it plays now. I get that many people feel that VPR has been dumbed down by some margin, and are unhappy about it, but I find myself in probably the only subgroup that enjoys 7.05 VPR.
Raionhardt: The dumbest thing imo is how ninja is the most punishing melee and its scouting partner, viper, is just completely braindead and outperforms it
tetsugrat8849: Going to leave my comment here before i watch and then compare our takes, i really liked your video on what makes a job fun.

Before this patch it really felt like you had to go into your 2 minute burst phases methodically in order to make sure your buffs didn’t fall off as well as how you pick back up on your rotation post burst. I think it’s really been understated by the community how much easier it is to optimize the job with the additional 20 seconds added to your positional buffs. If you had bad planning your buff timers all being 40 seconds meant that you ran the risk of everything falling off in a domino effect and I found that VERY engaging. This tension typically arises when you are spending rattling coil stacks mid burst with any additional time left on 2 minute buffs OR acted as a way to delay your first ouroboros mid awakening to buy time for buffs if someone is misaligned. The job is still flashy and you press buttons the same, but they took the tension/fun out of the job for me personally.
teacupdreams5735: It’s so frustrating jobs should be learned that’s what makes them fun having their own intricacies and a skill curve makes jobs fun. Having a brainless job becomes boring.
partyboytimes: As a SAM main since it's release, Viper felt like a dream class to me. I love having my utility being high damage in a party, and having to juggle a few different key components of a class to achieve results.
While I may have an easier time now as Viper, it does feel less engaging after these changes.
chipslight738: The discussion of player's choice or lack thereof depending on the job reminds me of the discussion I had with a friend regarding gap closers doing damage. In his opinion, gap closers no longer doing damage on multiple jobs is a good thing because, optimally, you would use them in your opener/under raid buffs because otherwise it's wasted damage for the exchange of movement and that now, jobs like DRK or MNK can focus on just doing damage and using their gap closers whenever needed.

I am of the opposite side personally. The fact that you had to choose whether you spent all your gap closers for damage or keep one charge for movement was something I really enjoyed actually as it felt like I was rewarded both as my skill as a player to keep uptime as well as my knowledge for knowing if a fight has a lot of movement or not. In the grand scheme of things, it indeed is innocuous : not like we're looking to parse high or even doing savage content (aside from unsync glam farm). But still, it was a little choice that made me enjoy the fights even more and why I want my Plunge back.
BARogueAssassin: Let me play devil's advocate for just a second: Viper this savage tier felt amazing to figure out. There were examples in most fights, but I'll use M4S in particular. From using vicewinder during both parts of Witch Hunt to give myself a longer gcd to move out with and not worrying about NG while doing it, to setting up double reawaken for raid buffs during Ion Cannon after dumping four Uncoiled Fury in a row, to finding the exact line to use down to the gcd I pot on to make sure I can double reawaken during transition and not lose any buffs when she goes untargetable, there were many parts of the decision making process in Viper's rotation this tier that made me alter how I interacted with the rails of the rotation that left me immensely satisfied when I found the right path. In all likelihood, these incidents would've been far more difficult to figure out with NG at play.


But now that I've said that, let me also say this: I'm disappointed that I never got the chance to figure out these lines with NG. I'm disappointed that there could've been yet another component to crafting the perfect line of playing into my teams buffs, never letting cd's drift, and not once letting any buffs overcap or drop. Viper was the first time in a long time that I felt XIV had become comfortable giving a failure state that wasn't just shooting the player in kneecaps, but rather something that you'd curse under your breath seeing you messed up, and vow to do it better next time. Having NG removed feels like Viper has been dumbed down to an insane level, and the only thing keeping it from feeling worse at the moment is that high end fight design is still somewhat engineering the need for thought in the rotation whereas, before, NG could've handled it in those fights and more.
the7blargs: Gnash removal was unnecessary and I still play Viper since its release but now I'm just worried if they are gonna continue to dumb down classes in 8.0

Aug 12 2024

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