kitetales: “We all know who Igon is”
Shows Igon in his best moment
SpremeCalami: Notice how the dragonkin soldiers are missing their stomachs. I’m pretty sure this must mean they are connected to the trolls, which would also make sense as they are large, unintelligent and shouty. Also there is a mimic blob thing that transforms into a troll in one of the eternal cities. It definitely seems like trolls or their mimics were used to create the dragonkin soldiers
handle1049: Jack come home your family misses you
roscoe2311: Why’s my mom catchin strays
Demokaze: It wasn't just Bayle, though. The new red lightning pots say that some ancient dragons sided with Bayle, which explains why Senessax is at the jagged peak and why the remaining ancient dragons at Farum are not fighting the drakes flying in its air space. Florissax's dragonbolt also implies that Placidusax didn't love his kin alluding that he was a poor leader. And there is in fact no mention of all the ancient dragons making peace with Leyndell after Gransax's assault, just the brothers Fortissax and Lansseax. Fortissax sacrificed himself to save Godwyn and Lansseax gave Vyke whom she loved her dragonbolt blessing just like Florissax gives hers to the player. So I think the pattern here is that the ancient dragons who discovered feelings of love abandoned Placidusax.
garrulousgoldmask: I didn't realize just how close the Dragonkin soldiers resembled BAYLE THE DREAD! But wouldn't it make more sense for the Nox to create Mimics of Bayle with the Dragonkin? Bayle uses fire lightning while the Nox don't use fire (that isn't ghostflame) and could only conjure up Frozen Lightning.

As for Metyr, she does peace out into a microcosm black hole so she's (presumably) still alive.
roscoe2311: Another connection between the Nox and arcane is the black whetblade (found in the eternal cities) where both infusions scale with arcane
solomon9655: Something I noticed:

Visually, the Dragonkin have always stood out to me as not fitting the Nox aesthetic. Gold wrappings, purple flesh, red cape. A dragon in a place that otherwise doesn’t seem to worship dragons at all.

I think we get answers retroactively. The Dragonkin now looks like it would fit within Belurat standing right next to the Dancing Lion. Both have a similar palette, large ceremonial plating and mantle, and can harness lightning and ice (Dragonkin fuses lightning and ice but can’t summon storms), AND they’re the result of some divine ritual. The Dragonkin has always had a puppet-like aspect to it whether it is one or not, with its armor pieces clattering around similar to the Dancing Lion.

I don’t think the Nox were simply mimicking the Belurat culture but they were definitely mimicking the magic that brought life to the Dancing Lion. Instead of monks piloting a puppet, they had a silver tear absorb a Drake heart. Instead of lions they chose dragons as their figure of choice.

More than before I’m just wondering what the Nox were hoping to achieve with this experiment, if it was the last of their Silver Tear endeavors or if others came after.

Edit: Assuming you’re right and Bayle is the magnum opus of the Eternal Cities, that would mean ALL drakes have ties to silver tears. Which explains a lot actually, specifically the drake’s unique ability to adapt to their environment, complete with altering its breath element depending on its affiliation.
SpremeCalami: I do see this being a good theory, but there was some points that wouldn’t really be connected (like how 1st gen albanaurics can’t walk and Bayle is missing a leg, which isn’t connected because he lost his leg in battle with Placi). Take out the random points and this is still really solid though
jackalkhan5676: I remain unconvinced due to the following, The Nox have never attempted to do anything with The (horn based) crucible before, so it wouldn't make sense that they made one fire dragon that worked better than their other attempts. They may have sided with him due to his uprising against whatever controlled the Elden ring at the time and base the models after him. But I think Bayle's older than the Nox. Altered by evolution.
aegis766: How do we know it's Nox > Bayle > Dragonkin and not Bayle > Nox > Dragonkin? Placi subcontracts offing Bayle to murderhobos- no disrespect to Igon, king of trashpickers and trashtalkers- maybe Bayle did the same thing, getting some eternity-obsessed lizard-people to start making sucky clones of himself
Arctodon: Considering he is the "the oldest and most vile of the dragons" I reckon the dragonkin soldiers were the Nox's attempt to recreate Bayle. Not the other way around.
falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962: I really do not think people understand the Dragon Priestess when she says that Bayle is the "oldest" dragon. He is not the oldest drake, but the oldest dragon of all, including Placidusax. Placidusax and the "ancient" dragons have hands, and hands were gifted by Metyr to the Beastmen, Beastmen that serve the dragons. Bayle can reurrect in the flesh of those that consume his heart. Who else resurrects when consumed? The World-devouring Serpent, which is why Tanith attempts to consume Rykard after he is defeated: so he may "find purchase within" her. Consuming drake hearts also transforms a consumer into a magma wyrm. What does Bayle, Rykard, and the Magma Wyrms have in common? MAGMA. Liquid rock. The earth was magmatic in its beginning, and only cooled to rock (gravelstone) after millions of years. ER is not Dark Souls. Its cosmology is different. Magma came first, and violently so. Bayle was born of that magma. That is why his talisman increases magma damage.

Bayle's transgressive communion is much like another form of communion in-game: the Dungeater's communion, or the Omen. I think that Bayle is a Crucible dragon and, much like the Omen and Hornsent that Marika shuns, Bayle was shunned by Placidusax and Metyr for not bowing to their commands. He was likely there first, which is why he has his own Captain Ahab. He, like Moby Dick, represents the unbridled earth, a Darwinistic creature of myopic hunger and rage and primordial evolution.

And as for his descendents being drakes, so what? Godrick is descended from Godfrey and Godwyn, yet Godfrey is the "lowly Tarnished". The drakes are nonetheless descended from the "oldest, vilest dragon", Bayle.
LycanDreams9159: i would be more likely to believe that the nox found pieces of bayle flesh from his fight with placidusax and use that as a base when trying to make their nox dragon. they were so preoccupied with making an ancient dragon that they didn't realize that bayle was a wyvern with enough power to challenge Placidusax. Maybe if they tried to make their dragonkin creations wyvern and not ancient dragons it would have been closer in power and abilities to bayle. bayle is interesting though because he is a wyvern with only two front wings and two legs however in his boss fight he sproughts magic shoulder wings. true ancient dragons in elden ring all have four wings it is one of the marks of a true dragon. i think this is the closest we have seen a regular wyvern get close to being a true ancient dragon in fromsoft. It is no wonder that bayle thought that he could rival placidusax.
anecro: I think what makes more sense is the other way around. The Nox managed to only create imperfect copies of Bayle. Bayle was the blueprint. They may have wanted to create their own Bayle with stone scales, an immortal dragon with the designs of the flesh-based ones.

Other things like the legs or wings just seem silly to me, more like stretches to support this theory if anything. Bayle's leg was damaged in his fight with Placidusax and his other one works just fine. This was just ignored and the connection wasn't made here despite mentioning the injuries of said fight. Moreover, the Dragonkin have clothing showing where they come from and their limbs are completely different to Bayle's, plus their wings are more similar to the Elden Beast or Astel, who actually fell on the Eternal City and wrecked havoc. Astel and his brothers could have given inspiration to the Nox to begin with if not directly influenced the materials they could be using, so this makes much more sense than connecting this to Bayle's own creation. This strengthens the connection of the moon, stars and cold magic even further too.
Additionally, Bayle shows a lot of crucible-aligned design (pushing him further back and possibly making him older than the Nox altogether), specifically his horns, which the Dragonkin lack. The Nox using anything crucible related is not mentioned anywhere and there's nothing in the design of their cities and culture to suggest this. If anything the Nox probably aren't fond of anything besides their own method of creating life and a lord, they seem very absorbed in their silver tear practices similarly to how every other faction is with their source of power, most of which include discrimination and abandonment / punishment if you do things a different way.

I personally believe Bayle was at best their blueprint in creating a dragon, they might've even tried to imitate him in hopes of challenging the ancient dragons themselves the same way he did. The one thing that's definitely weird still is the fact that his incantations require arcane but this isn't as crazy as it's portrayed here, most dragon incantations require arcane on top of faith and he stands in direct opposition to the ancient dragons that function with faith. It only makes sense his would be the other side of the coin, as the leader or father of all flesh-based dragons.
jonchapa5404: Bayle is an Omen Dragon. The first of the drakes. That's how I see him.
supergastonh: Yes Jack... Everyone is a mimic
Vlad47000: That was a solid Plague reference with Seath, kudos for showing respect to the original Souls' content creators
ravendelacour1917: I think you have it backward. I think the Dragon Kin soldiers are the result of the Nox using Bayle as a template for their Dragon Kin. This is why the Kin are weaker than Bayle despite being later creations, they are pale copies. Perhaps they took Bayle's genetic material from the missing leg.

Jul 31 2024

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