Ziostorm: I’m not a gatekeeper. I summoned for a few bosses during my first run of Dark Souls back in the day. But I have never seen a souls game like Elden Ring where so many players I invade have absolutely no concept of how to dodge an attack or have less than 500hp at the end of the game. This is the first time I’ve seen players in such massive amounts get carried by an overleveled phantom since level restrictions were removed. Phantoms used to feel like part of the world, where a chance encounter from a player converged on your world in a time of need, yet now co-op has turned into guides, carries, and secondary markets for overpowered early game weapons. I understand the appeal of multiplayer, though I can’t help but feel something has been lost in the process.
xFrakster: Feels like most commenters didn't even watch the video.
He is not telling you guys to not use whatever you deem to be fun, and he's not shaming you for using summons.
So why is every single top comment about that.
bonaquador: I was staunchly anti-summon my first playthrough, but after using them and testing different spirits on mini-dungeon bosses and overworld encounters that don't feel that rewarding to solo, I had so much fun. Highly reccommend interacting with the mechanic in that way.
TheYoungSapling: I think the accessibility and volume of ashes says a lot about From Software’s intent with the mechanic. They are intended to be used as a tool by players that are so inclined to use them (where allowed), or need to use them to progress.

I think a lot of players really struggle with the difficulty of the game, and ashes alleviate a lot of this trouble. They’re also just fun - the variety of them, the upgrade paths, the designs.
alielsakkout7415: i find summons way more fun to use when i'm fighting multiple enemies, but i prefer fighting single enemies solo to get into that soulsy dance and flow state that summons kinda interrupt
Dr_Donald_Duck: I'd argue there are areas where the intended experience IS using a spirit ash. Like shown, in Godricks Courtyard or in some Multi-Enemy Fights like Watcher Gargoyles adds.
cirnobyl9158: The melee combat choreography in Elden Ring is really well-designed and fascinating. It's incredible how nearly every move can kill you in a matter of seconds, but nearly every move can also be used as a window for aggression. That's not something you'll be able to enjoy fully if you have spirit ashes / co-op. Perhaps the loss of this enjoyment is worth it for some players as a tradeoff for getting through the game faster, but I simply think it's not worth it for most.
sk8legendz: As a mimic main to solo beating the whole game my take is that

The game will hand your ass to you on a platter while your 10 mimic watches in horror. It doesn't save you from being bad at the game

So I don't view summons as any more helpful or putting the game on easy mode anymore than broken bleed builds. They'll carry you sure, but only so far. You still have to learn the game.

RL1 wretch club looks easy by Ongbal. But id have a hard time.

Likewise there's people stuck on malenia right now with their ROB and Mimic combo. Because they just never got good

summons and OP weapons are like a car, they'll get you home faster than walking but if it dies, you better hope your legs work

I think new players that feel helpless to advance should use EVERYTHING to enjoy this game, I think players who need a challenge have plenty of options available. And I'm glad fromsoft made it this way.
DoomsdayMayBeOkay: I don't use the Ashes because i think it ruins the sense of accomplishment for me personally. Same think with DS and Bloodborne.
I would never shame a player that decides to use them though...
maras00jr49: I think it's undeniable that the game expects you to use them against double boss fights. That's how i used them on my first run. The double Crucible Knight is infinitely more fun with a summon, turning the fight into a 2v2. There are plenty more examples, that's just the first that came to my mind.
samthompson261: I went in blind and didn't roomba, as those were Miyazaki's two pieces of advice. I used spirit ashes because when I found them I thought they were dope and didn't know about this online discourse lol. Had an absolute blast.
absoutezeo2126: My suggestion to friends for a first playthrough is that spirit ashes are 100% on the table and even encouraged, but only use them when you're really, really struggling. If you use them all the time, you never get that one-on-one experience you need to understand the timing and hitboxes of bosses.

As for co-op, I always recommend people do their first playthroughs alone and then co-op and invade as much as they want afterwards. It's very easy to have your PVE experience tainted by some cheeseball nonsense otherwise, usually a cooperator using some level 700 build or just straight-up cheating with exploits. Having one good playthrough that lets you experience the intended story and immersion is always worth it.

P.S. While I do recommend using spirit ashes as a way to help when someone hits a wall, I actually recommend simply leaving and coming back later first. Elden Ring is an open world game, and there's no reason to get yourself stuck (unless it's Malenia lol).
Derpdeder_: I always play solo on a first playthrough, however in Elden Ring you can't get organically invaded as a solo player so co-op is my only option.
it's a shame but it's the only way I can get the Fromsoft experience I want.
so therefore I like to explore in co-op and then do the bosses solo first time.
feldered: I did not use spirit summons for most of my first playthrough because I played blind and never got back to church to get the bell from Ranni. Still I find that especially duo and trio bosses were originally made to be fought against with summons because they attacked you together. Then they changed it for other to wait on background to please those who refuse to use summons.
boshwa20: Me and my friend did our first playthroughs along side each other.

Elden Ring's coop system was one of the most frustrating things we had to deal with.

I really hope Fromsoft updates their multiplayer for the foreseeable future, because when SOTE comes out, im already seeing me and my friend connecting/disconnecting just so we can explore the game

The multiplayer mod on PC is the greatest thing to come out of for Elden Ring
Battleguild: I actually wish Spirit Ashes was a spell school rather than an area limited consumable.

Though if they were to do this, the ashes would have to be readjusted appropriately.
ni9274: I think we need to acknowledge that Elden Ring is the type of game you can enjoy even if you don't engage with the boss fight mechanic and use cheese , there is still the feeling of exploration, the feeling of becoming stronger and beating boss with the items that you found in the world, the lore, the intricate level design.
GILGAMESH069: I don't care if you use spirit ash summons because I myself use them in some niche situations, I just find it funny that people try to pretend that it's not a totally different experience and even worse calling you a toxic elitist, not for shaming them for using summons but solely because you pointed it how different the game is with them which is ironic because they treat anyone who dosen't use them as a tryhard elitist which is just as toxic
Actually taking your time to learn the meticulously crafted boss encounters is now seeing as way for "losers" to prove themselves because of some inferiority complex and not at all because they simply find it more fun
This more than anything they do in game is the negative effect of spirit ashes on the community
Aldoz: I was more or less brand new to souls games when I played Elden Ring, and so I had few reservations about using spirit summons.
For me they seemed to function like a crowd control ability, often I’d meet a boss where there were several enemies in the boss arena, or just a particularly difficult boss for my build to deal with, this is when I would use summons. I saw it as a way to get some heat of my back at the start of a fight so I could better find my footing and understand how the boss worked. I didn’t really have a good understanding of how to fight bosses properly, so I think without a lot of these tools, I would have struggled to actually finish the game and all the bosses.
Maybe some people think that players like how I was back then doesn’t deserve to beat the game and experience it in my own way, but I love Elden ring, and if I didn’t fall in love with it playing it like that, I might have never understood how older fans enjoy the game, and I can now enter the DLC with the same mindset as them to challenge myself.
depalodor: Absolutely incredible how some people here typed a comment not 5 minutes after the video released about their stance on this topic. Even bringing up arguments and logic that are being addressed or even entirely denied by the video and thus should make you think if you came into this in good faith. Because they didn't watch and came into this with their mind already set in stone. Sad that we can't have this discussion like normal and maybe come to a better conclusion than the both horrible extremes that dominate the discourse.
noanswer1864: Considering what you can do to any boss yourself if you are willing to properly prepare, use all the summons you like. 90% of the summons you receive will only be good for pulling a bit of agro before they pop. Some are quite strong, but you get them later. The people saying otherwise either ignored them all from the beginning, or they don't want you to have any backup when their failed arena fighter ass shows up in your world to R2 spam at you. If you're not planning on PVPing, ignore every last one of these people. Play with your friends. Summon your favorite spirits and empower them to their fullest. Explore the map, and enjoy the world. There's as much to the exploration and sight-seeing in this game than there is combat.
pingpong5877: Remember folks, if the devs put a mechanic in their game, it's a feature that CAN be used. But if you installed an easy mode mod, then you're NOT playing how the devs intended.
scottcoyotl: Use everything in your arsenal.
absoutezeo2126: I'd like to add that spirit ashes actually have a tangible HP/FP cost, unlike cooperators. You can also only summon spirit ashes once if they die, unlike co-op which can just go on endlessly without a meaningful cooldown.
shinyhydreigon7257: I think some level on "toxicity" about Summons is good. I feel like too many players in Elden Ring think that they aren't capable of beating it solo, and resort to summons without truly giving themselves a chance to get better and learn a boss. My first playthrough in DS3 I knew about the stigma of summoning phantoms, so I didn't touch it, I didn't want to be a bitch. Is that a toxic mindset? Sure. But did it drastically raise my enjoyment of the game and series? Without a doubt.

Its like you said in a video before ER came out. In our moments of weakness, whether it be getting stuck on a hard boss, or level, we are likely to choose the path of least resistance. But if we put some sort of barrier to that easy path (stigma), we are more likely to keep pushing forward and we get to dance with the boss.

Most people who use Summons are only robbing themselves of an amazing experience.
theworstcatholic7247: Here's the thing. It makes the game easier, arguably trivial in many circumstances, summoning can legitimately be nigh the equivalent of handing the controller to your older brother if you want it to be (Let Me Solo Her got famous over it.). Then there are other bosses like the twin crucible knights, gargoyles and godskins that feel like they are balanced around ashes (or just not balanced at all really). It absolutely makes the game significantly easier.

People shouldn't rag on others for using summons (lest it be playful banter) but neither should summoners be disingenuous and act like there is no difference at all between the experiences and many will recommend trying it solo because of that.
DennisEngelhard: My current MO is that I only summon for Godskin Duo and Gideon, because if Fromsoft doesn't put any effort into a boss, neither will I.
Sablemae76: I've done playthroughs with and without spirit ashes and it's sometimes easier and sometimes not. Their health goes down faster but the bosses can feel unpredictable and chaotic. They can turn on a dime from attacking your ash to attacking you. There's a bit of a give and take with ashes.
ksw8514: My problem with spirit summons, just as NPC summons in older games, is that they mostly just turn the boss fights into an unpredictable and chaotic mess. Unless we get more control over them, I don't think I'll ever understand their appeal as a gameplay mechanic.
Eeiiaane: I'll summon whoever I want, whatever I want, whenever I want, I'm living and playing peacefully on my own this is coming from someone that has been playing the soulsgame for a long time from the start..
LycanDreams9159: My memory is famously poor but I do remember there being an interview with Miyazaki or some other dev saying that they went out of their way to include more aoe attacks on bosses to balance them around ashes. You can see this best in the first major boss godfrey who is almost all aoe. It’s literally all over the bosses in this game. You can argue that maybe fromsoft didn’t do a good enough job at balancing for ashes but I think it’s disingenuous to say that there was no accounting for ashes.

In my first play through I used mostly wolf ashes( because I’m a degenerate furry) and they were so frail I more often than not went out of my way to get back Agro from the boss so that they could last longer. It was a challenge all on its own to beat a boss with even one wolf alive. The fun of hunting with the wolves is better than worrying about the lost purity of the one on one dance when most ashes can’t last a whole boss fight anyway.

Of course I know most ashes are stronger than the wolf ashes and I would agree with you in telling people to save legendary ashes like mimic tear or the headless mausoleum ash for a second playthrough. Normal ashes though I do not believe warp the fight enough to warrent treating them like mimic ashes.
frankcaggiano8282: If they're there, they're meant to be used if desired. Whether you do is up to you as an individual. There is no "should" or "shouldn't". Just, that you CAN. I have ADHD, autism, and ZERO patience. If a boss is taking me more than a handful of tries, I'm likely using a summon. Not because I'm incapable of eventually getting it, but because it's no longer fun to keep trying at that point and I'd like to continue playing my video games to relax, not to compare and contrast my experience to everyone else's, thank you very much.
ReversedCentaur: People can play how they want but it absolutely an optional easy mode.
chickensofdeath490: “We don’t want people to look things up” makes the most obscure, unhelpful and terrible quests in any video game.

Jun 07 2024

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