VictorIV0310: ⁠​​⁠Speaking of Miquella, it’s interesting that you can find one of his crosses in the Shadow Keep, implying that for whatever reason, Miquella entered/snuck into the keep and may or may not have interacted with Messmer. Kinda weird how Messmer was just chilling next door as one of his demigod siblings is busy ascending to godhood while using someone he was buddies with in the past as his consort. Imagine how shocked, angered and/or horrified Messmer would be if he were to find out what happened to Radahn.
maize3201: I love how they made Messmer feel so connected to the rest of the family without ever interacting with them. He looks just like Melania in his second phase, Radahn looked up to him as an older brother, he has a similar personality to Morgott, he inspires loyalty and is well liked by the people who follow him like Miquella, he’s associated with serpents like Rykard, he has one eye and is used to burn down a tree like Melina, and his theme is like a darker, more tragic version of Radagon’s theme.
writerblocks9553: Red hair, and a hand-me-down robe? You must be a child of Radagon
stoicghost4313: Messmer has a reputation of Terror but when we meet him he's not obnoxious or boastful.
He's this laid back macabre man with a quiet confidence.
All the other Demigods: you won't stop my agenda and get my shard Tarnished!
Messmer: Your Tarnished? No further questions needed. Time to die.
madgeek15: "tapeworm of unfathomable power" gonna be a metal song one day
Volition366: Man messmer would have been the coolest older brother.

He's very soft spoken and chill but also capable, he has the best pets, the most badass girlfriend, his best bro is a huge ass guy who rides a boar, and everybody who gets to know him personally swears he's a great guy.
KingJobber: I think it might be worth thinking that maybe the M naming convention isn't indicative of a child of Marika and Radagon. The M naming covention might just be for the children of Marika who were born afflicted. Morgott and Mohg but have the naming convention but are children of Godfrey.
aranthur: Ymir's High Priest Hat says "The circular design at the top represents the Greater Will and its lightless abyss," which makes me very curious about the relationship between the serpent and the Greater Will if the abyss belongs to it in some way
thecrypticstench: Messmer should’ve been the main antagonist of the dlc. Such a fantastic character and one of the best fights From’s ever made.
cultofcheddar861: My guy, the world is insane right now and i was never gonna get to sleep but here you are , thanks
moresomoze: My neighbors had an impromptu trashcan bonfire in their back yard and were screaming "they want war" over and over again at 1:30am. my children slept with my wife and i and listened to smoughtown elden ring lore videos until they finally fell asleep. Thank you for such great content, and thank you for helping me get my young worried girls to sleep. Its crazy in my town today.
justinrodriguez5957: I think "A man torn and conflicted" sums up Messmer's character.

It's clear he never truly bought the mission his mother was selling him and when he was locked away it's almost certain he suspected he himself was the real reason the crusade happened or at least part of it.

Look at the company he kept, the fierce loyalty he inspired, and the fact he allowed the conservation of the Shadow Land's culture despite being in charge of purging it all.

None of those are the mark of a zealot, but the mark of someone hoping for all that is holy that the most tragic of possibilities is not true.

But upon seeing his mother select the Tarnished as a potential Lord elect it confirmed his worst fears.

It's all because of him. Because of his mother's fear of him, an entire culture was purged, close friends and loyal men were forced to lose everything and stain their hands with blood of a people's who had done nothing at present.

All of it, all of it, because his mother had given up trying to save him, and would rather seal Messmer away. Reviled and forgotten.

And so, in the end, all Messmer could do is curse his mother's name and her machinations for causing him to condemn so many people just by his sheer existence.

I would argue it's fine to use "tragic" to define Messmer because he is a tragic character. A monster to many, absolutely, but a son forced to become monster only to realize it was for nothing.

Whether this realization is the cause for why Melina, under the presumption she is the Glome Eyed Queen, wanted her mother and her rein dead, is something to consider at least.
kell_gg: So ready for SotE Smough content!! Also, congratulations on the book! Will definitely pick that up.
joshuabrown4775: While Vaati is still undoubtably the king of presentation and cinematography, I look forward to these so much more. The level of research and detail is unreal; thank you!
amirgh1900: Messmer feels like a Targaryen
sclafantasy: Thanks Smough! Hes becoming my favorite character in the game. A complex figure who would do anything for his family despite being born cursed and then outcasted. Classic GRRM! Similar to Margott but even more tragic.
piedpiper1185: I would like to propose a different theory with the 'M' naming convention. Every time it is brought up, people seem to just completely forget that Mohg and Morgott exist. I think the 'M' names do not reference being born to Radagon x Marika, but that it symbolizes that all such children are cursed.
KuraSourTakanHour: There'a a few indirect sources that could imply just what the GEQ is related to Melina.

Much like how Empyreans have an alter ego (Marika and Radagon, Miquella and Trina) the Gloam-Eyed Queen was surely the alter ego of Melina, and there's a bit of indirect reference implying this and that Melina is an Empyrean.
Its inferred in the game Empyreans have a closed eye. The only others we see are Ranni, Malenia and Miquella. We never see what Miquellas eyes looked like before he discarded his eye at one of the crosses, which Ansbach even reveals is proof of Empyrean status. Melania's eyes are conveniently completely destroyed so we could not see if she had a closed eye).
One closed eye represents the absence or removal of their other half (as Ranni burned her body and Miquella discarded his Empyrean eye and body, as well as St Trina, both his eyes are closed which implies a complete denial of all himself, not just half).

When Melina is able to open both her eyes in the Frenzied Flame ending, its because we unsealed Destined Death which allows Melina to awaken her sealed half, because it was not actually possible to kill the GEQ but only "defeat" her by severing Destined Death from Melina, and I suspect this was done by destroying her body which is why she is "burned and bodiless". I feel its circumstantial evidence but it fits extremely well.

All of Melina's memory as the GEQ was also removed as a consequence.
heysamuelhere2733: Here are some ideas I have about Melina (These might be complete shots in the dark. But I like to theorize. Feel free to disagree, I just like to share :D ) :

Butterflies: Of course we now know she does have her own butterfly in the base game. Which I believe implies she is the daughter of Marika and Radagon. I think the butterflies are specific to children of the two of them. (Perhaps even to twins specifically?) An even further reach I have is they are specific to Empyreans. Which might or might not be right (really only works if Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen). I think her curse would be the kindling she has in her like Messmer, and something related to death. Hence the Gloam Eye.

Burned and Bodiless: Melina tells us that she indeed is burned and bodiless. I think this might be implying she could have done it of her own volition. Much like Ranni and Miquella did. She divested herself of her flesh to destroy her ties to the Golden Order. (It would finally explain why her and Ranni have the same spirit effect entrance. Perhaps she was even the first one to do this and gave this idea/helped Ranni with it). For whatever reason that might have been. Be it burning the Erdtree (or the Godskin uprising).
shnobrin7928: I personally think that Marika being a Shaman, and the Hornsent abusing and flaying the shamans was one of the main motivators for her to conduct this purge. The minor erdtree incantation says "Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal." (And the village is called Shaman Village, basically outright saying she was a Shaman.). To me, that seemed to imply that her motivation to even start her crusade and conquest was the Hornsent flaying and murdering her people, and having killed all members of her village, except for her.
I think that her sealing Messmer away was why she kept the crusade going, despite sealing and abandoning her son, writing him out of history. Probably out of fear mostly, but partially probably also because she understood that if people knew what she did, that would greatly tarnish her reputation and renown.

Although, on an unrelated note, it makes me wonder about her motivation for the shattering.
Before the DLC, I always believed that it was a culmination of two of her children being Omen, and thus locked away, another child dying and even more of her children being afflicted with curses.
The song of Lament that the bat ladies sing has a line that translates roughly to "Golden One, at whom you were angry? (Aureum, cui irascebaris?)" which I always took to mean that Marika was angry at her own Golden Order. Because not only was one of her children murdered and turned into a rotting mass of undeath, two of her children being locked away and hidden, which can't have been nice, and others being cursed without a way to heal them.

Now I think that Morgott and Mohg being Omens probably played a bit of a bigger part in this. Because she created a world that persecuted hornsent and omen for the crimes committed against the Shamans. Marikas people. And thus, seeing two of her children with crucible aspects, and most specifically horns must have been a grimm reminder not only of her pain, but also her crusade and hatred towards the Hornsent. Not enough of a reason to shatter the Elden Ring, but probably something that added to her motivation to do so. And when Godwyn got murdered, it could have made her lose all faith in her order, shatter the Elden Ring and call back the tarnished, to establish new order, and bring about a new age.
agucci: Note that Messmer's theme in the OST contains Radagon's theme, a further hint to his being Radagon's son (just like Midra's theme contains the melody of the merchant from above the Three Fingers, signifying his connection to the Frenzied Flame).

However, the letter M means nothing on the fatherhood of Radagon, because Morgott and Mohg are the sons of Godfrey.
KonstantinosMargaritis-kc6zt: Just adding a though. The initial letter and the red hair can be really connected to Radagon. On the other hand, Morgot and Mogh have their initial starting with M. The most plausible explanation is what you say, that they belong to a first generation, when everything was against the erdtree. Melina as the gloam eyed queen, was helping her mother hunt down antagonistic gods. Messmer as it seems, is somehow linked to the fight with the giants and the fallen god. Both were feared by their mother because of their powers and it is probalby the case, that the exile of messmer led to the godsking apostasy and the punishment of melina. This just a thouht on the subject nothing more.
VictorIV0310: It's pretty interesting to compare and contrast Messmer and Miquella when it comes to the loyalty and trust of their followers because while Miquella can earn genuine loyalty from people like Leda and Malenia, he's prone to using his powers of compulsion to maintain his followers' loyalty. On the other hand, Messmer seems to inspire genuine loyalty from his followers without resorting to power or coercion despite seeming like a grim, sullen demigod who knows nothing but war and slaughter.

- Rellana renounced her royal title to swear fealty to him along with some Carian knights and sorcerers, becoming known as his loyal “Sword”.

- Commander Gaius is one of his close friends who leads his ground forces. Despite being an albinauric who would normally be shunned by the Golden Order, he remains loyal to Messmer and holds a high ranking and respected position.

- His Lordsworn soldiers and knights are devoted to him (With spirit of one going as far as being outraged that Marika has never embraced him). They've proven to be difficult enemies with many tricks up their sleeve, implying a level of training and discipline higher than even some knights in the Lands Between.

- The Fire Knights, his personal guard, came from Leyndell’s upper echelons and noble families. It's stated they didn't mind being ostracized and disowned by their noble families back in Leyndell if it meant being at their lord's side, and tried to put Messmer's flame into themselves, to show their unwavering support.

On top of all that, they did all of this knowing they’ll be shunned by society and erased from record with their deeds unsung and forced to wage an unending war without mercy or honor. They also have no real reason to stay in the Land of Shadow anymore. While indeed, they're trapped with having no way of knowing how to get out and despite being war weary in what amounts to uncounted ages of genocidal slaughter, Messmer's army remains rather organized in the Land of Shadow despite major events happening outside their reach. The Golden Order has collapsed, Queen Marika is imprisoned in the Erdtree and the Lands Between was ravaged in the Shattering, all before the Tarnished comes to kill any and all remaining demigods left. Messmer and his army could’ve deserted the Golden Order, splinter up and resort to banditry. Yet, even after all this time, they remained at their posts, unaware of the developments in the Lands Between, with little to no hint of any rebellion or mutiny aside from a few black knights such as father and son duo Andreas and Huw, respectively, who rebelled Messmer after discovering his “serpentine nature” and was imprisoned for it. Even after Messmer quashed their rebellion, he gave them an honorable burial and mourned for their loss.

Not saying that their deeds should necessarily be seen as justified and honorable but it's certainly an interesting look into Messmer's character.
user-ie7ib1fb8i: There is also the ost, which is the same melody as Radagon's ost
KingJobber: The topic of the abyss and darkness and the color purple always had me thinking about the Night's Calvary. They are soldiers who ride in darkness and they summon their horses from a purple portal (the void). I know there isnt a ton of lore on them but its something I always found interesting.
maxderrat: LET'S FREAKIN' GO
alpacaofthemountain8760: What’s interesting to me is that there seems to be a part of Erdtree society that despised the Crusade. If they all thought that the hornsent deserved death, they wouldn’t shun those who went on the crusade. Also, Marika wouldn’t have to make Messmer a scapegoat.


So either not all in Erdtree society hates the hornsent, or, they did, but they still feared those who would do such horrendous crimes returning to normal society.
jamesnorman9160: This guy might be starting to become one of my new favourite demigods.

He was born cursed and hated the serpent/flame that was sealed away inside him, but still took on a crusade ordained by his mother to bring death to the Hornsent and to try and gain her approval, and he willingly became this figure of hatred and terror so that no-one else would suffer that burden. And he still stayed somewhat loyal even after beign abandoned for so long: that or he was just in serious denial up to the point of his death.

When you're first going through the Shadow Keep, you can see so many of his regular troops just standing or sitting around lookign absolutely dejected. They know they've been abandoned and they're just done with it all, plus practically every statue of Marika throughout the Land of Shadow has had it's head taken off, save for the one in Messmer's throne room. No way would he let them just walk in and deface it.

Also, I was originally under the impression that Messmer was one of the first demigods born, hence why there is no reference to him anywhere in The Lands Between: it would have been easy to bury his existence and that of the LOS before the others came along...but the fact he and Melina likely came from a later generation makes sense too. Both striken from the records for what they were/did.

Also, the fact Marika had so many cursed children probably reinforces the fact she was being punished for the Original Sin she commited when she first ascended to Godhood.
umukzusgelos4834: Now just imagine Marika standing somewhere aside the Land of Shadow and suddendly pulling out a giant bed sheet out from under her robe and throw it over the Scadu Tree and the lands around it
"One, two, three, PRESTO!!! And the the Hornsent, my problematic Firstborn and all those things that kept bugging me are gone!" - round of Applause from the Leyndell Royalty
LittleKrakkul: I agree that giants were impaled by blood sorcery, however, that doesn't preclude Messmer from coming up with this idea and commanding blood sorcerers to do it. It could be the catalyst for his distasteful reputation, since blood sorcery is seen as heretical, and fits with the theme of him deflecting negativity from Marika.
ainzchan1292: Note:
Sablemae76: All i had to do was hear messmers ost and gear radagons theme to realize hes a child of marika/radagon
bazuso___: I personally am still on the fence about who is messmers father. I believe someone else mentioned in the comments that Godwyn is yet to have a “dual opposite” and messmer definitely fits the bill in every regard. Initially the hair would be indicative of radagons lineage, but what if the color was meant to throw us off the scent? The opposite of gold, the infamous enemy of the golden order, is a red flame. Could be the reason why messmers hair is red, to directly contrast godwyns luscious locks.
bobvagana5443: i find it interesting that Radahn's swords are stated to be made of black steel, a material associated with Messmer's army of black knights and to my knowledge, one not found outside the lands of shadow, Maliketh's set is said to be made of black iron, not steel, and i cant think of anything else that would use the material.
Blessom: "Mother... Marika... A Curse Upon Thee..."
mutzielen: I still believe the whacky theory that the gloam-eyed queen was a flaming abyssal death serpent and Messmer and Melina are the offspring of her and Marika/Radagon. With both offspring inheriting different elements of their parents.
VictorIV0310: I think with regards to the Specimen Storehouse, User @Known_liar said it best:

When your murderer dedicates a museum to you in order to preserve history, it is not out of a sense of respect or love or admiration but a compulsion to remember their victories over you.

It was not enough for them to win, they must own you. A victory over you as eternal as the belief that “If we take from someone we kill, we earned it and it is our right to keep it. It was so important to them, you see. We must value it for them.”

People who own museums dedicated to cultures they destroyed are not also somehow their saviors by keeping and maintaining their culture. They're just grave robbers who learned that paying for admission made them more money, that artifacts last longer than meat and that you can sterilize anything, even crimes, if you put it behind enough protective glass and assure them that it's “history”.

Don't get it confused. Messmer didn't do his part in protecting a legacy, he just made sure there was enough of them left for a footnote.
HeyGuy4321: I like it when the cute little white snake sounds like it's talking to you when you meet mesmer. Cute snek
aluminumsoldier: One mystery to me is the nature of the possible relationship between the abyssal serpent and Marika. Messmer's remembrance reads:
"A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow. Hidden away—keeping company with the original sin, and a hatred that would not be confined."

I think most people have glossed over the nature of the "original sin" mentioned in the remembrance. We don't have a lot information on what Marika did in the shadow lands before she passed through the gates of divinity after all. But in Christianity, the "original sin" was the seduction of Eve by the devil, who convinced her to disobey God by eating the fruit of the tree of life while in the guise of a serpent. The devil argued that God did not want humans to eat the fruit because they would become His equal, gods themselves.

The remembrance says that Messmer is keeping company with the original sin. I would suggest that instead of the sin being a vague wrongdoing Marika did to achieve Godhood that merely happened in the shadow realm, Messmer is literally always In the company of the original sin because it is inside him- the abyssal serpent. Perhaps the serpent is directly related to Marika's ascension to godhood, her knowledge, and her access to the gate of divinity.

Perhaps Marika made a pact with the serpent somehow, gaining the power to acquire godhood, punish her tormentors, and avenge her village but at the cost of a common sacrifice in fiction: her firstborn.

Just as in Christianity the original sin is said to pass onto the children of Adam and Eve, and then onto their children, and from there all humanity, the original sin of Marika passed directly onto her firstborn son in a literal sense, perhaps even as a term of the pact.


There are a lot of holes in this theory and a lot of conjecture that lacks in-game support. The role of the Greater Will and Marika's two fingers implied to exist by Ymir are big possible complications. The theory also fails to answer why the serpent would want this pact or why it wouldn't serve as Marika's god instead of the Greater Will if it desired power or domination, like most of the outer gods seem to. But the connection between the original sin as a concept in real life religion and serpents seems too obvious and compelling a connection to be made within Messmer's remembrance to be coincidental.
ZeroFallout1: I do believe messmer was first born, but it was after the conquest of the giants. The fell god cursed Marika after its defeat. That curse turned Radagons hair red. It stated that he resents his red hair. I believe while Godfrey was fighting the Storm Lord, Marika had children with Radagon. After seeing her kids born cursed, she tossed Radagon aside. She finally got her perfect child in Godwyn.

We believe it was Marika's choice to call Radagon back from Lurnia. I believe it was the 2 fingers. They needed a stronger shackle for Marika. Godfrey and the tarnished was her plan to free herself. We know from Melina's dialog that Radagon was going to take over Marika's body eventually.

I believe the Abyssal Serpant is an outer god and creator of all serpants. I think the immortal serpant were more numerous than we think. That skin could be another immortal snake in the lands of Shadow.
ang3l.0f.kniv3s: it’s my opinion that melina is cursed by the gloam eyed queen in the same way each of her other children is cursed. the fact that one eye is gold and the other eye is gloam, that she promises destined death for the the lord of frenzied flame, and that she wields the blade of calling and dodges like a black knife assassin, i think all hint to me that she has been a tool for marika, which is probably why she appears to be really deliberate and thoughtful when she says that she plans to follow through with the plan marika has for her to burn the erdtree

Jul 20 2024

Buy Elden Ring Runes