Aria_DemonsSouls: I feel like you're going to get a lot of angry comments from this video, so I just want to say, you're completely right
Ouroboros619: In the next Souls game, the first boss will follow you around the arena with their weapon raised for five minutes, then the fog wall will dissipate. You will continue through the rest of the game with the boss trailing behind you
neoshenlong: Honestly I thought the way Midra and Bayle did delay attacks was pretty engaging, fair and added a lot to the rythm of the fight. Both fights are in my top 10 most enjoyable souls bosses.
Silverstar114: I like the idea of having delays sprinkled in, because they should realistically be used by enemies to catch you off guard. But having almost every attack be delayed makes no sense from a combat perspective for most enemies. Why would you leave yourself wide open expecting your enemy to dodge when there's no reason to expect them not to just attack you? And if the plan is just to hit trade because you're stronger, then why bother delaying at all?
CobaltBlitz: I wouldn't include Midra. When you complain about delayed attacks, it's important to take into consideration the most important quality that can make or break said attack: animation legibility. Midra's attacks are very well animated from his weird cape/cloth thing to his actual sword swing, you can absolutely dodge his attacks on reaction just by paying attention to the animation. That's not the case for every boss, Margit/Morgott's overhead swing is infamous because....there's not much distinguishing animation work to telegraph when the swing will occur. That's not the case for Midra. In fact, I'd say Midra is an example of a well done delayed attack boss. All his physical sword attacks are delayed, but his frenzy AOE attacks can be quick and erratic. It's actually a good way to clue you in on how to deal with the boss pretty quickly. I'd say I had much more pleasant time learning Midra than Consort Radahn for example. The other factor that makes delayed attacks obnoxious is tracking. Consort Radahn tracks excessively, his cross slash attack can turn him on a dime, which makes the delayed aspect worse.

So all in all, I'd say delayed attacks by themselves are not a problem. They're a problem when animation legibility isn't good and attack tracking is overtuned. Which surprise surprise, is the main issue with Dark Souls 2. It's also why I give Dark Souls 3 a pass most of the time, the animation quality in that game is very good. Gael phase 2 is another example of a boss with entirely delayed attacks on top of another layer of delays, but he's amazing because of the animation work.

Also you seem kinda salty over the fact that he's the only frenzy related content...which yeah sure I guess that's fair. It's not really enough for me to ding the boss quality. If we're talking about narrative dissatisfaction, Consort Radahn is worse in almost every regard.

also final edit...the deflection tear more or less dumpsters delay based attacks. Did you play Sekiro? It's waaaaaaaaaay more intense with the delays than Elden Ring.
austin0_bandit05: Part of the issue is that you have to visually justify the delay. Mohg for example has a certain weighty flow to him. Whereas Horah Loux sill leap at you and literally go into slow-mo mid air. The first time I saw this attack I started laughing.
limpbizkit1631: even as a fan of delayed attacks, and a massive fan of midra, you're completely right how overused delayed attacks are in elden ring, sure they've made me stop panic rolling as much, but every fight feels like a game of timing and it all blends together, in dark souls 3 I find I can reaction roll on almost every boss and get away with it, and the delayed attacks are a good mix-up that keep me on my toes, in elden ring however that reaction roll feeling is gone, which is a shame because it feels like I go into every boss on a blank slate and I don't actually get better at the game, just that one specific boss.
Shishakind86: I have no problems with delayed attacks per se, as long as they make sense. Mohgs bloodflame explosions never bothered me because I figured that that's just how all those attacks work and they are a type of magic. But I always found it extremely ridiculous with how long Margit holds his cane because no serious combatant would ever fight like that. That is also why Midra was fine for me, since it suits his style - he gracefully swings his swords like some sort of dance and thus delays almost every attack all while being a lord of frenzied flame rather than a knight that you duel.
I know that this is no reliable metric, but for me personally it needs to be in line with what the enemy is and if it suits him, the weapon swung, etc. but as soon as I get the feeling that it's just a game mechanic meant to punish you, I'm lost.
michaelbowman6684: My biggest gripes with Elden Ring boss design are input reading, animation canceling, free flowing combo extensions, and inconsistent punish windows. Morgott will delay his swing for ungodly amounts of time... but if you roll before the delay is over, he'll immediately snap to catch your roll because he read that you pressed the button, which cancels the rest of the animation to perform the attack earlier than he would have normally if you didn't roll. An example of two enemies that I believe have wacky combo extensions are the Crucible Knights and Bell Bearing Hunters, once a Crucible Knight has entered phase 2 they can swipe with their tail to smack you to cover their previous whiff punish window, meaning you either need to delay your punish until they've reached the moment of their recovery animation that they can no longer use that move (which limits your selection of weapons due to speed-related concerns) or you need to bait the tail swing with something really fast with low recovery like a Dagger so you have enough time to dodge it afterwards. Bell Bearing Hunters have a thing where if they do their shield slam attack, they have an optional extension that will make the shield explode in a massive AoE if you attack into them before the animation is over, so you have to wait until they start the animation for putting the shield on their back before you can start attacking them, which just feels unnecessary? Just make the explosion happen every time so I don't have to guess when it's safe to start attacking him.

Malenia breaks all of these rules and more, having endless free flowing combo extensions on top of being able to cancel her "damage level hit stun" stagger animation into a dodge away from you which reduces the damage of your attack, or she can perform an attack that will punish you for attacking her, both of which gives her an inconsistent punish window, which is made even more inconsistent because of her Super Armor that makes her Stance unbreakable during many of her attacks, which means that despite her only have 80 Poise she can tank a 100 Poise damage attack with her Super Armor which will then put her Poise into the negatives and immediately start regenerating it without waiting for the 30 second Poise recovery timer, without
thecatinthehatwithabat9903: The only delayed attack I have am issue with is Horaux Loux's bullshit dash grab where he suddenl6 fucking freezes mid air without any explanation
joshuabober9171: I dont think bro is "completely right" like others are saying. Elden rings boss design does use unintuitive swing timings. Other times, bosses like Midra may have slow swings, but they're perfectly readable if you watch their hand movements. Souls games were always rhythm games to some degree. Changing or slowing the rhythms doesnt make bad boss design.
mocho4487: I find it more fun when the bosses have delayed attacks. It makes you constantly pay attention to its attacks and learning it is satisfying Ishin, for example, has mostly simple attacks but it has a certain delay in them that confused me a little at first but then it was very rewarding to know how to react properly
calebfouts7118: My guy, just because Midra has delayed attacks doesn't make him a bad fight. I think your forgetting that even tho his attacks are delayed, they are similar to Mohg's in which they are all delayed slightly. That gives the fight a consistent tempo and rhythm. Also Midra's delays are extremely telegraphed, so much so you don't really need to guess on the timing unlike Margit or Godrick.
greypsyche5255: Dodging too early for a delayed attack isn't "panic rolling". It's instinctive rolling. There's a difference. Panic rolling is when you're rolling randomly out of panic without intention or deliberate timing. Instinctive rolling is when you think the attack will hit before it actually hits based on the animation. I understand when the devs try to punish panic rolling, because it makes sense, they want you to time your rolls, but when they punish instinctive rolling that's what gets me the most. I absolutely hate that shit. They artificially delay the actual landing of the hit.
Polevolter: While I understand your grievances against delayed attacks, I disagree. Just as you brought up the "trend of second phases", I think delayed attacks are a natural evolution as part of a game's enemy engagement, not simply as an arbitrarily hard challenge. The way you describe delayed attacks is in such a generalized way that much context is removed from a boss's overall toolkit. Godrick's delayed attacks have the purpose of moving you back into mid-range and away from being close to him, while Margit's delayed attacks serve to punish reckless positioning or over-reactive dodging. In addition to this, delayed attacks do pose a danger within the flow of combat but also have the caveat of giving you an opening to punish the boss. This keeps the flow of combat engaging. I played my first playthrough of Elden Ring with the colossal Greatsword primarily (because my friend sold me on this because of the Berserk reference and showed me how to reach it early) and finding these openings through trial and error during my boss fight attempts was crucial for me being able to land jumping heavy attacks or charged heavy attacks on these bosses. If Margit takes a year to swing his cane or to stab it into the ground, he's going to be winded long enough for a light weapon to land a charged heavy and a jumping heavy, and a heavy weapon can land one charged heavy or one jumping heavy. Malenia's delayed attack in her first phase ends with her performing a downward sword slash with a recovery window that is long enough for me to land a jumping heavy with my Greatsword.


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Your perspective on delayed attacks is also that attacks may be delayed but they are also fast upon striking...which to me is a really unusual complaint. From your script, it sounds as if you prefer for boss attacks to have attacks in which you have to reactively dodge upon a visual/audio cue, which these attacks DO have with their long delay. The delay is the visual cue that an attack is approaching that you must avoid. I think the differentiation you did with "delayed, slow moving attacks" vs "delayed, fast moving attacks" stuck with me though not in a good way. This comparison attempts to present the latter form of delayed attacks in a bad light but I don't think one form of delayed attack is inherently superior or inferior to another. The more I think on your video, the more I get the impression that your bad experiences from these delayed attacks have just ultimately soured your overall game experience. I don't think its a "skill issue" like a lot of players love to say, but if what I said is true, I think this stops you from evaluating the boss fights as a whole and appreciating their flow of combat. I think with how you mentioned "healing punishes" and then how Pontiff can "combo", it just gives me the ick, the same ick that I get when frustrated players want to transform their venting into a talking point or criticism. In spite of this, I think you did bring up a good conversation point: are DELAYED ATTACKS OVERUSED?

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Going back to what I said earlier about the natural evolution of a game's enemy engagement, I think delayed attacks fit right in just as with "boss second phases". I do not believe that they are overused. I do not believe that these design elements exist as a method to arbitrarily heighten a game's difficulty, but rather to compliment the combat engagement with enemies and bosses. Enemies that perform quick, immediate attacks when they see you and when you are in range...are already such a common occurrence even within Elden Ring. The usage of delayed attacks serves as a means to disrupt traditional combat expectations and to create better combat engagement through making the player more observant instead of simply being reactive. I will confess that I too have fallen prey to delayed attacks given how I play and with what weapon I play. Midra caused me a bit of frustration with his delayed attacks on top of his health pool, to where my impatience started to take a toll on me and caused me to not enjoy Midra's fight as much as other people did. And this is a good transition into the "fun" of it all. Can you find delayed attacks to not be fun? Sure. Though when presented as good faith criticism, it fundamentally sounds like a complaint disguised as criticism and propelled by misunderstanding. It is similar to when the popular community sentiment against Elden Ring bosses was that "they're unfair because they never stop attacking" or "its impossible to heal against them". I think the community has a collective desire to gather together to rationalize their frustrations instead of overcoming them or understanding them. This isn't to say that I play FromSoft video games without ever getting frustrated but what ultimately drives me push on through and enjoy the experience is because I enjoy playing these games. Like everyone else, I too got stuck at Malenia and felt overwhelmed but I never felt like there was an outside force that tried to rob me of my enjoyment.
RandomNorwegianGuy.: two things I love about Elden Ring. Unlike every other Souls game, ER does really punish the spam/panic rollers. In ER, you can't just circle around big bosses and booty slapp them with ease. You have to actually learn the dodge timings on almost every single boss
blake4020: i think the majority of people just have more fun fighting a boss when they can use their reaction time to their advantage and maybe get a first try victory instead of going into every boss fight and feeling like they have to study for the boss exams
MonsterJuiced: I want to have a go at trying to explain the real issue in combination with highlighting some of your observations Berto. A good fight is usually attributed to ones that have a good rhythm to it. Such as when you dodge, you can feel the right timing for when the next dodge is going to be without even looking (after you've experienced the combo's). Kind of like Sekiro. These feel fun and fluid and you know your windows to punish or heal.

When combo's are being chained it's more difficult but aslong as you recognise them it's fun to dodge through and around.

These delayed attacks become absolute absurdity when say for example Melenia while she's floating in the air waiting to water fowl you, she has extremely tight tracking on you the whole time so in a really stupidly physically impossible way, she just rotates around to keep her facing you exactly where you are at all times. She just spins on a dime.

This happens with a lot of bosses, it's not just the extremely unrealistically long wind up time, but it's that they also just turn around as if air doesn't exist causing them any drag whatsoever. They just spin on a dime and likely 1 shot you with an attack that looks like there was no power behind it because it took so long to come out.

And you mentioned the regular enemies, holy crap don't get me started on those messemer soldiers, the axe wielding ones. I mean wtf is that attack? They stomp, then slow-mo swing at you while running, fully leaning forward like they're gonna fall flat on their faces, and swing again to roll catch you. It's designed as an egregious 1 shot.

Then there's the dog-head imps with the staff. That thing just chases you holding the staff in the air and they'll chase you for ages before they decide to swing down on you. They also spin on a dime if you run around them because of their physically impossible tracking.
ItsjustmeAlone: Delayed attack look so weird and unnatural it make sense for bosses like midra and fire giant but for all the bosses is a bit excessive
sonikku997: Imho the thing with these new "delayed" attacks is that they're made of two parts: the charging and the swing.

The charging part is not the issue, because it's almost always telegraphed and recognizable.

The swing is where it all falls apart. No matter how long or slow the charging portion of the animation is, if the actual hit takes less than a quarter of a second, you'll likely be unable to dodge it because of simple human reaction time.

Knowing that an attack is coming is only half the battle, you also have to know when
underwarboy5065: While I don’t have problems with delayed attacks mechanically, as a story, some can be really immersion breaking.

You have Mohg, clear and natural delayed attacks based on the weapon he wields.

And then you have Margit, holding his cane for an unnatural time in the air because mechanics go first in the battle, rather then the logic and lore behind his powers.
And many others, like Godfrey and Radagon.


This breaks the roleplay that this a living world with characters and stakes, and just turns into a game with A.I built to fight especially against you.

Jul 27 2024

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