Pub_Squash: Big thing people don't take into account is that the sun isn't in the same place as it is in TLB, so you'd always have to tilt the map. Both maps aren't orientated with a true north

skylexender: I belive, that the shadow realm IS in the gographic center of the lands between. The reason why the map doesent fit in by size is that the ingame lands between are severely underscaled for gameplay purpouses as it typicaly is the case for open world games with substantial lore. The same can be seen in how Skyrim is downscaled from the real comparative size that bethesda tried to replicate before, in Dagerfall. So, if we say, for example, that lands between are downscaled by 1/100, shadow realm could be downscaled, to smaller ratio, for example 1/50, it would fit neatly in the middle, possibly even in that very cloud on the map.

thesurfingrhydon_9941: Man, it's crazy that George and Miyazaki decided to make the Silmarillion required reading for the DLC

Er404ChannelNotFound: "A historic land of the dead" vs "just another part of the lands between" are not mutually exclusive. In fact, people think too much of the lands between as this physical land and they don't ponder its significance and implications. Marika is a god eternal, she shaped the lands between much like Gods of earthly myths would shape the afterlife and where the dead would go. This is why I had no issue interpretting that the realm of shadow was once part of the lands between where death was sent, and part of that involved the gravebirds and deathrite birds. Ultimately Marika removed the rune of death and separated the realms but that didn't stop death from flowing there is how I took it to mean. Either way none of this would've precluded Marika's ability from designating as her own version of river styx, and that may be part of what she did when she veiled it.

All in all I just want to hammer home the idea that much like Greek Gods for specific things exist and so do mythic lands that got created by them and weren't simply there since time immemorial, so too can carriers of Great Runes and parts of the lands between carry signifcance to some aspect or element of creation.

thechairman1306: Devoia's armor item description doesn't say that she departed the lands between. It says they departed "the land of the Erdtree."

There is more than one "land" that makes up "the lands between" that's why the name is in plural.

zeppie_: I personally really like the Centered Tarnished's theories on the psychological/Jungian inspirations on the nature of Elden Ring's world. In that sense, the Lands of Shadow is basically everything Marika wishes to repress and forget. It's the source of her trauma, and therefore inaccessible out of self-preservation.

It makes geographic sense, as well. In the past, one might have gone from Caelid to Altus in a simple straight path. However, now that the middle part is veiled in shadow, the way isn't so direct anymore. Just like how a person's mind can be muddled by repressed thoughts, and how they would have to skirt around those to reach a conclusion, the player also has to take the long way around. In addition, this part of the map is extremely central in terms of placement but also in terms of Marika's story.

In a way, this makes Marika's story extremely personal. She's so traumatized by the hornsent to the point of repressing her earliest memories, even the imagery of horns alone was enough reason to name them a monster. Horns a natural part of the crucible, an animalistic aspect like any other, and she knew that too. But despite that, he was so distraught by her own children bearing horns that to her it might as well have caused the collapse of the age of plenty.

NorthernDruid: I fail to find the counter theory compelling, that the Lands of Shadow wasn't at the center of the Lands Between originally. While I think it's clear that by the time of the game it's been physically separated from the Lands Between I think it's anything but clear when that happened.

For all we know the Lands of Shadow as we see them could be be parts taken from all over the Lands Between. And even were it in one piece, it could still have been altered significantly. Heck, for all we know they're not even meant to be the same scale, as they're videogames they're clearly not to any sort of realistic scale to begin with.

Also let us remember that "recently" is a very relative term. The War known as the Shattering was 5000 years ago according to official lore, and there's no reason to expect each Elden Lord's reign was any shorter.

One issue I have with the idea that the Land of Shadow was separated before Marika's rise to power is really, how'd she get to the Lands Between. If it was already hidden how did she leave? How were the Numen connected to the eternal cities if they were all Shamans?

I also think it's reaching quite far for Altus and Scadu Altus to just be geographically unrelated, while I can imagine there would be real life justifications for such it would be poor storytelling.

There's also quite a couple of locations of significance in the Land of Shadow that have too much relevance to the rest of the Lands Between. The ruins of Rauh is one such locations, where it's civilization has left significant amounts of marks on the Lands Between. Another is the Grand Altar of Dragon Communion, you wouldn't expect Dragon Communion to be primarily practiced in an entirely different land with it's Cathedral so far removed from the most basic purpose of the practice. (can you even do regular dragon communion at the Grand Altar? I forget entirely).

As for the Land of Shadows having an extra special relation to death. I imagine it's morel likely the Lands Between have been purged of such connection, that Marika used the Land of Shadows as a rug to sweep it all under. Maybe that is why she ultimately hid it away further, because she wasn't able to purge the death from there.

I consider the Lands Between to be a transitional afterlife kind of place, a land between Life and Death, where you go through on your way to whatever comes after death, hence why the greater will wanted to keep it specifically under Order, even if in the end it doesn't matter too much what form the Order takes.

tonylawson2222: Stating the obvious- The Lands Between

Nemo12417: Regarding the towers, I wouldn't put too much thought into that. The Divine Towers, the Suppressing Pillar, and Enir Illim are all towers, yes, but they were built by different civilizations. The Divine Towers are some of the oldest structures in the Lands Between. The Suppressing Pillar was built by the Ancient Dynasty civilization, a civilization so old that no in game text refers to the statues of its most iconic figure we see everywhere, and everything we know for sure about it comes from the description of bubble sorceries (which suck). Enir Illim was built by the Hornsent. So I wouldn't worry too much about the Pillar not lining up with the Divine Towers.

THETYMEKK12: The separation happening in a distant past still doesn't sit well with me. There are item descriptions (Dueling Shield and Festive Grease) that point at a regular connections between those Lands or at least the fact that at some point Marika actively ruled them both. The Erdtree culture influenced the Land of Shadow so it must've been accessible before Messmer's Crusade. So maybe, as Smough said, the initial separation of the landmasses happened long time before Marika, but she sealed it away much later, to the point that you need to touch a weird withered hand to enter :D Even so - where are the harbors, or some other ways these cultures could influence each other despite existing on separate islands? I don't know.

dylantroyerdt: I personally tend to think Elden Ring plays very fast and loose with what's literal and what's thematic. I do still think the land was at the center and tend think that it's not beyond Marika to have set up the land of shadow as a sort of under world...

However, and more importantly, i don't think that matters at all. I think the closest analog to compare this to is the Old Hunters DLC. No, it's not a nightmare and I'm not trying to handwave the geography, what i am saying is that it's more important to convey the themes and story than to line up the land one-to-one.

All that to say, i think the "where does this fit in physical space" question was never really meant to be answered because that would shackle the plot of the DLC to the plot of the base game. This is something new. I'd argue Elden Ring is about the Demi gods and Merikas line, but the games have a secondary focus on something outside of that. The base game tells the story of the two King Consorts, whereas the DLC focuses on the story of the Hornsent. I think From left this really up to us because it's not the point to get caught up about how pixels overlap. Let's be honest, FromSoft have rarely make geographical sense. And i don't just mean DS2.

MoreLoreThenThereSeems: we know miquella went through the shadow keep so messmer could have heard about tarnished from him if it wasn't already a concept prior to the banishing of godfrey.

And even all of that aside, I'm pretty sure messmer would be quick to gather information on what must be the first new people to enter the land of shadow in decades.

SanguineNobleNataan: don't think of it in the 2d plane. think of it as a 3d spiral, corkscrewing downwards. cerulean coast can be under limgrave because the map spirals downward, with the abyss and midra's manse being at the bottom and forge of the giants being at the top.

Varre922: I think the overlay argument isn't meant to be literal I.E the in game Land of Shadow map was not meant to directly overlay with the Lands Between in game, it's meant to be a rough approximation of where certain areas would connect to each other. You do make other points however that do make me think more about the central sea arguement.

I think that the Lands of Shadow were defintely physically connected to the Lands Between and they were for the most part in the center part of the Lands Between. However I think that when Marika removed the Rune of Death, it almost certainly caused the Land of Shadow to not function properly which might explain why it for example has coasts and separate islands, I.E it was being geographically devastated by the laws of reality being alter and sort of glitching out to say.

greathorn: To add to your theory on the nature of the Scadutree, the Erdtree as visible in the Lands Between is translucent; it has little to no physical presence there, as it has transitioned to being an “object of faith”, possibly after the first burning that buried Leyndell in ash. If the Scadutree were the physical “husk” of the Erdtree, which it has been forcefully separated from, it would make sense that its physical form is essentially falling apart. It’s cut off from its life force

PlatinumAltaria: I think the parts of the land have likely been uprooted and rearranged, piled up just like the stone coffins, washing up on these shores to form a false island centred on the Suppressing Pillar. Based on stratigraphic principles we can conclude that the lowest areas were placed first. Areas like the Abyss and the Finger Ruins are evidently older castaways than Rauh, Scadu Altus and the Jagged Peak. Most of these areas are connected with known history; the Abyss presumably being banished after the first encounter with the three fingers, and the finger ruins being cast out along with Metyr. The Jagged Peak was exiled after Placidusax's battle with Bayle, and Rauh is connected with the unknown giant civilisation whose structures underlie much of the Lands Between. Scadu Altus is obviously a chunk taken out of Altus, hence the name. The Gravesite Plain is therefore likely the original body of the Land of Shadow, the natural place of death.

realm087: First of all, thank you for taking my comment in your previous video into consideration! Since you started making this series, I've been really looking up to you and your great interpretations, so being able to contribute means a lot to me. It's possible that, maybe the smaller details are not supposed to be as important to the themes of Elden Ring as much as the overall symbolism. But it's still interesting how some details surrounding the Shadowlands can put a few things in check a bit more than we'd like it to.

As per usual great video, but I'd like to debate individually over a few of the arguments you make in this video, individually:

1- A few times you talk about the time when Marika would have hypotheticaly separated the Lands Between from the Realm of Shadows as "recently". That gives me the feeling that you might not be considering just how old Marika's reign potentially is. G.R.R.M. mentions "at least 5 thousand years" when talking about the beginning of the Golden Order for example. Also, we know that the Golden Order only trully began some time after Marika became a god. First Marika fought the war against the Giants and there was probably some period of development before the Erdtree empire trully became the ruler of the Lands Between. The protection of the Erdtree spell's description says: "In the beginning, everything was opposed to the Erdtree. But through countless victories in war, it became the embodiment of Order." There is a possibility that the reign of Marika started in what we could already call "ancient times".

2- Regarding people not knowing about the existance of Enir Elim and other details regarding the Realm of Shadows: The Shadow Militiamen set reads: "Freshly-singed battlegrounds effusing with the stench of the dead. Forbidden lands that will be excised from the memory of history. What better place than the realms of shadow then, for such an army?" There's a possibility that the "veil" separates the Realm of Shadows not only physically, but to a degree so great that applies to even the memory of people of the Lands Between. Currently I strongly believe this to be the case. There is a possibility that even Marika herself forgot about it (read Jungian Elden Ring theories about the psychological shadow) and since Marika is the vessel for the Greater Will's vision and the aspects within her shape the very laws that governs the Lands Between, maybe Marika veiling her own memories about a place could be the exact methods used to veil the Lands of Shadow. And Miquela probably used a very unique method to access the lost knowledge (Maybe St. Trinna and her connection to dreams - which would also hark back to Jungian theory).

3- All the items that mention the Lands of Shadow as being a place where all manners of death wash to could be referencing a point of view of someone who lived during a time where such lands had already assumed it's new role. As per point 1, Marika's reign itself might be ancient enough to make history before it's beginning be extremely limited. As even the Hornsent seem to have worked alongside Marika on their "Godhood" plan, which Marika ultimately used to her own ends (or maybe to the fingers ends), and most descriptions surrounding the Divine Gate and it's ritual are said to be "ancient".

4- The Lands of Shadow is a land not only of death but also of life: it is heavily implied that life flourished in at least some parts of the Lands of Shadow like it did nowhere else, specially around the Rauh Ruins. This to me gives this land a bit more thematic diversity than simply have been a Land of Death since time primordial. There's also a question of why is there a distinction between spirits, dead bodies and living bodies which mirror exactly the one in the lands between. If this place is where all death ultimately should drift to (on a trully fundamental level), then why? What even makes it special? Everything seems to live, decay, and die just as well here as in the lands between, which seems really important to me.

5- Culture, architecture and history: If this land was primordially separated from the Lands Between, then why are there Rauhl structures in both this place and the Lands Between? Why does so much lore seem to imply that the Land of Shadow is Godfrey's original home? Why are people born here and also die here? What is the mechanism through which so much cultural interchange happened but then also was lost? You mention the fact that people don't know about the things that exist in the land of shadow as an argument in favor of it being disconnected since basically the beginning of time, but if so many people throughout history just navigated between both places, why is so much history lost (specially when it comes to counscious history) but at the same time so much vestigial history (items, cultural influence, architecture) present? This is why I believe in the memory veiling theory I mention in point 2 so strongly.

6- Why is the Rune of Death not in the Land of Shadows: While there is no very strong contender as a solution to this point, the memory veiling theory of point 2 gives a possibility: Even Marika forgot about the Land of Shadows. Moreover, we know for a fact that Marika wanted a god to be killed. She ordered Hugh to make a god killing weapon, etc. There could be something more surrounding this plot point. Maliketh's Remembrance states: "Maliketh was a shadowbound beast given to his Empyrean. Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him." Another point is the fact that Larval Tears "burgeon from spiritgraves" and they are something needed by the Amber Egg to rebirth people. If your theory that the amber egg seals the greatrune that governs births, then it's also interesting to note that this aspect is also sort of delegated to the Lands of Shadow, at least in a non artificial form (Nox's silver alchemy).

worth-what: You really showed up outta nowhere and started dropping the best lore content on YouTube. Damn.

JoshJr98: Maybe the lands between was just the friends we made along the way

___.51: Finally, someone’s addressing the central sea problem.

havtheroc: I can think of two arguments against the counter theory. Very brief ones;

1. Marika obscured the Land of the Tower/Land of Shadows from the rest of the greater Lands Between in every sense of the word. Literally out of sight and out of mind. Many people within the Universe can influence the mind. Especially Miquella.

2. The reason no-one in the base game speaks of it is either due to purely out of universe mechanical reasons, or in-game it is a Locus non grata

CJusticeHappen21: So, basically, Marika Prime invaded Marika C-137's Universe, tore shit up, and left.

cardinalthewarden888: The shadow tree had its light stolen to build a god. A god that fled, and hid its shame behind a veil

dragickrstajic6011: After watching this video I actually think your interpretation makes more sense than the Central Sea theory, and lends itself to more interesting lore discussion and implications. My two cents are that maybe it was the conflict between Placidusax and Bayle that initially split the two lands asunder? Ancient Dragons sound like the race that would have the power to do such a feat, their rule is presented as a prehistorical period long before the Erdtree, and Bayle's arena on Jagged Peak matches Placidusax's arena in Farum Azula, which we know was once part of The Lands Between. So maybe when their situationship blew up, the land itself split? Divorce proceedings and all that. In any case very compelling video, great work!

colelaing7029: Great video! I am actually the one who posted the map overlay with the tower scale to the lore talk subreddit back when I first finished the dlc (u/Coal_AL). My main intention at the time was to hammer down the most accurate 1:1 scale for comparison because so many overlays at the time were either way too small/large in order to fit nicely. Via matching the footprints of the converted fringe tower and Rabbaths rise across both maps I established a fairly accurate scale. When I treated this scale as law there was no configuration that worked perfectly, especially not when “very center of the lands between” is taken literally. It could be argued that the overlapping sections may be solved by considering elevation (not a necessarily a super convincing argument). Generally speaking I don’t think any overlay that respects the in-game map scale as law fits very well. It is also not impossible that even if FromSoft did mean for the Shadowlands to be in the central sea the maps simply ended up not fitting due to development reasons (pretty big assumptions).

I generally agree with you that whenever the Shadowlands were separated, it was at least mostly removed a VERY long time ago, there are far to many inconsistencies with the outside world. But I do believe it was once in the center sea. The geography is simply too bizarre, the jagged and nearly concave cliffs along the whole northern interior, and the colossal waterfall on the eastern edge of the map between dragonbarrow and the mtotg scream to me that there was something there before. I understand why this could be unconvincing, there are definitely some assumptions needed for it to work. But at the end of the day the I find myself taking the suppressing pillar at face value “The very center of The Lands Between”. This is getting long so I’ll end here.

Keep up the great work!

Feb 18 2025

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